Curse

Draxx · May 30, 2006, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Personally i have loved coming up with new PvE warrior builds to solo certain areas,

because what you will find is when you have a fantastic build it will work almost everywhere in factions, simply because of mixed mobs.

this seemed alot harder in tyria that it is in cantha. (to take on mixed mobs.)

i love the challenge and am enjoying it, and i have started tampering with things i wasnt bothering with in tria also.

in this respect factions is fantastic, and pose's new challenges for players who like to level all char's and learn about all classes.

but the main problem has always been there Emphasis on it being a stand alone game, The problem with this being that Factions has the base of a stand alone title, but with the content (story line and size.) of a expansion. i wouldnt of cared if they charged the same as the game for it as long as there is no bullshit when it comes down to it.

and Anet's marketing of factions was a little misleading.

Never the less i am enjoying it and think there is far mode good than bad to come from Factions.

Fitz Rinley · May 30, 2006, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoitaan

Prophecies PvE combat was dull, completely lifeless and boring. Some people on the forums seem to think this was somehow more PvE friendly. I don’t understand the reasoning in which less of a challenge is more fun and I'm sure for every one person voicing their complaints on the boards there is at least 3 others playing and having a load of fun.

Assumption of facts not in evidence. I do not see why someone would enter an explorable area just to play Missile Command or Asteroids. Smaller area might help with server space, which means sacrifice for expansion based on affordability. I do not know. But smaller areas also mean more cramped tactical options and less time between encounters. Thus the new rushing from combat to combat, being swarmed by 3-6 mobs at a time, and some kind of belief that such is intended intensity. It appears some continue to make the assumption that casual play means lazy play rather than relaxed and enjoyed play. That assumption is an error.

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The areas are harder - thank you, I no longer want to sleep while PvEing. A few guildies and me were talking about prophecies PvE long before factions was released, and we all felt the same way. PvE was a means to and end: The end was PvP... We felt slightly forced to go through the tedium of dull lifeless PvE in order to unlock skills for PvP (which us extremely casual players - at least during the semesters - do most of. Out of semester play habits are a different story

). PvE no longer feels like a chore!! Please don’t take this away from those in your player base that crave a challenge and get their sense of accomplishment from a difficult task overcome. (Note: my personal definition for the word difficult does not apply to tasks that are time-consuming – at least ingame XD)

I will admit I cannot afford the best weapons, mods, off-hand items, etc. I do not consider playing mob after mob after mob of 24th level afflicted and 60 DP to be a challenge (Chalice of Corruption). (Kill one, die, return.) PvE now feels like a chore.

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Not everyone thinks a lack of challenge is what makes you feel like a hero in PvE. A lot of people love the struggle because that makes the end reward all the greater.

Again you focus on outcomes rather than processes. If the journey is so important why promote shortening it so that it cannot be observed? Rushed efficiency lacks grace.

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1) Some people don’t like to choose sides – not your fault no but…

It isn't about choosing sides and taking a stand. I have taken a stand that handing control of my time to play over to others customers is wrong. If we both by a house, and I win the chili cook-off, should I have a right to deny you indefinately the use of your bothrooms? That is what Favor and Faction are about. This is a real issue. Faction should only affect NPC reactions, not grant players control over other peoples real lives.

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In EQ2 I read there being something about being good or evil but your choice ultimately being irrelevant to anything.

This is also true in Prophecies. GW is not an RPG and choices in conduct and behavior do not matter.

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3) You introduced grind to a game that boasted no grind...

I have never known a time when grind was not a part of Guild Wars, in over 1,500 hours of play. For the first time ANet seems to have taken steps to eliminate some of the grind by improving drops.

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At the same time, you did stay true to your goal of not having necessary grind

Faction is necessary grind to access what you paid for, and even that is not enough.

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The only reason you need to grind is for town control or armour. Both of which is not necessary (I say grind is not needed for amour because there is always non-factional armour options available. I have a hectic uni schedule this being my final year and all so between my subjects, thesis, and trolling XD I barely get time to play, yet I still manage to gain amber and so no one else has any excuse not to).

You forget that virtual reality is a conceptual medium. Appearence is the concept for which a player strives as there is nothing in story content to offer anything else. (We cannot choose to be evil and promote Shiro or the Lich, or even supplant them.) We have the false impression that every jerk and berk results in noble endings regardless of their intentions or decisions.

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To these people I pose a question about the faction gain mechanism… if you don’t want to PvP, and you don’t want to quest and you don’t want to do challenge missions (both PvE), then why are they still playing the game?

1) I refuse to PvP as other than a waste of time because it:
a. Has no value to me if I create a character capable of both (a non-PvP specific character).
b. It promotes oppositional, immature, and disrespectful behaviors by failing to require respect between contestants.
2) I do quest and explore with friends and to support friends.
3) I do not consider hammering on a key board and rushing from combatant to combatant to be a challenge more than the mindless routine of managing energy and/or adrenaline; especially when this is coupled with inseparable mobs of 12-16 (ie. the Dragon's Throat).

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Please keep the whole factions thing of rocket-line to 20. Some people complained that the journey to 20 was too short unlike prophecies etc etc... but right from the start the game was never about the journey, it was about what happened afterwards. Please keep it that way

You can slow the progression of people in the game and still have rapid attainment of 20 and exploration, you just need to make the story better

The problem of advancement has many faces. First, rapid advancement does not allow you time to familiarise yourself with the skills you get. Second, skills available most often have nothing to do with the enemy available to practice against or which provides the most immediate threat pressence on the field. Lastly, skills do not quickly become available in complete builds thru either the quest achievement system of Prophecies, nor the purchase system of Factions.

Many players promote Assassin play based on skills not available to the assassin (escape skills such as Recall). Ascalon is the home of Air Elementalists in the game, but one cannot build an Air Elementalist with the anything available there.

I have no care for quests and missions designed to keep characters at 60 DP. I do not consider this more of a challenge, I consider it bad presentation.

Fitz

Guitary Boy · May 30, 2006, 01:27 PM // 13:27

I cant actually think of a single area for grind in factions, i mean half of factions you can almost walk to get to new cities/towns/outposts. And i will tell you somthing that i hate, the armour problem as mentioned. Im luxen, so i get denied the possibilty to get "Kurzick faction", and i have to pay for amber....
Actually, thinking about it the only grind area is echovald (or whatever) forest, where there is masses of degen and alot of dead hencheis

UndeadRoadkill · May 30, 2006, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guitary Boy

Im luxen, so i get denied the possibilty to get "Kurzick faction", and i have to pay for amber....

You can't "be" Luxon in the game, you can only help them out for a while. If you want amber but don't want to pay for it, go do Kurzick quests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guitary Boy

I cant actually think of a single area for grind in factions, i mean half of factions you can almost walk to get to new cities/towns/outposts. Actually, thinking about it the only grind area is echovald (or whatever) forest, where there is masses of degen and alot of dead hencheis

Are you sure you understand what is meant by "grind?"

Kakumei · May 30, 2006, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

hey guys my feelings got hurt because the other team didn't say they respected me back

Indeed.

lyra_song · May 30, 2006, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy_M

/not signed.

Can definately see NcSofts influence here. Look at the Lineage 2 mechanics..

Oh you mean the guys who sit outside the gateways to towns and try to PK you when you come inside to sell your loot? ^^;

Guild Wars Factions has very little influence from Lineage 2

Dove_Song · May 30, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11

If you could get IN the gate with all the dwarven bazzars stting in the gateway......ah the good old days

wsmcasey · May 30, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

ANET can't stop people from rushing through the game and skipping every cutscene, just to get to the end. People will inevidably do that, and then when they're disappointed by an ending they only partially understand, they say it sucks. I'm not going to actually make any decisions about the storyline until I finish it, but I'm going to know it quite well when I do finish it, just like I did with Prophecies.

Well, I took my time and finished factions with my warrior, and I have to say that the ending does SUCK in factions. I won't spoil the ending for you, but it's obvious that you will have a final battle with Shiro. I beat him with a random PUG in less than 30 seconds, This was a huge disappointment to me. How stupid does Anet think we are? I just think it should have been harder

Now the silly thing is, that after the game ends, we go on fighting against each other as Luxon and Kurzicks. Wasn't the whole point to join together to defeat Shiro in the first place, lmao. Can't we just get along!

Fitz Rinley · May 30, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Deleted due to lack of reason to respond.

Fitz

generik · May 31, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

This is also true in Prophecies. GW is not an RPG and choices in conduct and behavior do not matter.
Fitz

Haven't read the rest of your crap but this really caught my ire.

So at first they sucked in all the MMORPG fans by going around sprouting "Free play! Free online play!" For the record perhaps I should only stress at this point that the only online games that charges on a subscription basis are pretty much MMORPGs, and weird exceptions like Gunbound, but those are purely optional.

Then when people realised what a piss poor offering GW is as a MMO they changed tack and said, "Onoes! GW is a new kind of game! CORPG!" Personally I'd just call it a COP OUT, but hey, that's me.

Today you are telling me outright that GW is not even a RPG? On what capacity do you make that statement? Who are you to tell us, what and what not GW should be?

Might as well just take the next logical step and say GW is a fantasy FPS shooter "with spells!" Yeah, I'd buy that.

Swampgirl Inez · May 31, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

OK, back on topic, please. In the future, use the report button.

Thank you.

Fitz Rinley · May 31, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Where I have disagreed with the Op is in the principle of how to define what is a casual player. Being a casual player, I play for relaxation and social interaction with friends. I do not play with the expectation that I must grind as a 55 monk, or any other class, to complete all aspects of the game with the appearence and concept that I develop in play. I do not play with the concept that repeatedly defeating and denigrating fellow players for ego-inflation is a goal (an unfortunate group of persons in PvP). I know decent PvP players, but none of them are casual players. They work at their play just as if it were a full or part time job. That is not casual play.

Generik, please consider -

The Massive Multi-player Online and Game parts are functional. GW is not RP or role-playing. Simply skinning your pong-paddle with different shapes and changing the way the ball looks when it is tossed at the other paddle does not ammount to making a role-play game. Adding a linear undeviating plot between rounds does not ammount to role-play.

Role-playing involves the assumption of options which affect character destiny. These options are clothed in various ways from the super hero (one that never does wrong and never fails), the hero (one that does the best possible of a normal human), the flawed hero (one that does right inspite of deep character defects such as addiction, obsession, or sin), to the anti-hero (one who achieves a non-conclusive outcome). The main function of role-playing is to grasp character development and behavior which one would otherwise not personally experience or deal with.

Character development is not the accumulation of points in some bean-counters paradise. Character development is the development of personality in response to events. Is this persiona driven by the path of humanity or the path of power? Do they make altruistic choices or selfish ones? Are they personally disorganized and seek to have all things regulated or are they personally disciplined and see no reason for regulatory interference?

Another example of role play from the movie The Breakfast Club:
1) Emilio Estevez (Andrew 'Andy' Clark) - Jock
2) Anthony Michael Hall (Brian Ralph Johnson) - Brain
3) Judd Nelson (John Bender) - Criminal
4) Molly Ringwald (Claire Standish) - Princess
5) Ally Sheedy (Allison Reynolds) - Basketcase

Each reflects a role in Robert K. Merton's pundit square of behavioral types:
1) Accepts societies means and goals - Conformist/Jock.
2) Accepts societies goals thru other means - Innovator/Brain.
3) Actively rejects societies means and goals - Rebel/Criminal.
4) Accepts societies means but not inspired by goals - Ritualist/Princess.
5) Passively rejects societies means and goals - Retreatist/Basketcase.

These are expressed roles who begin a journey in character development whose affects on their life and behavior are notable by the end of the story. Another story for contrast is Braveheart. Mel Gibson portrays a non-developing or static character. He is super-heroic and stagnant. Angus Macfadyen playes a dynamic and developing charcter, Robert the Bruce, who overcomes obstacles to personal growth to become an ethical choosing individual no longer ruled by his father or clan and power politics. Instead he becomes the imposer of vision ruling them. Without character change, crucibles of character change, and options for changing the wrong way there is no character development - hence no role-play.

There are currently no successful role-playing games on-line which are not pen and paper based chat room events. It is for this reason that GW is a Massive Multi-player Online Game, or MMOG. It contains stroy line elements, excellent graphics, PvP opportunities, and explorable content.

Fitz

strcpy · May 31, 2006, 04:53 AM // 04:53

I suppose many, if not most Dungeon and Dragon games (including PnP) are not role playing then?

If you take that high a bar for anything to role playing then I don't really see how you can play video games period. I could count the number of games since around 1993 that meet your requirements on one hand and have quite a few fingers left over.

I could claim that because I think "massive online games" can not be instanced, nor even zoned, that all the games out there today are just little tiny online video games. Of course, me not being God I can't force that opinion on others, nor do I get angry if someone else has a different opinion of what makes it one.

I, for one, think this is an RPG. I don't see branching the story as a prerequisite. The rest of your checkpoints are done in your mind - it's not my fault you are apparently incapable of assuming another role and having your character play it. It seems to me many many many people are perfectly able to progress thier character, even having something of RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs/strippers, frauds, charities, parties, pretty much anything they can think of in this game. Sounds like "role playing" to me, but then I'm not God of Role Playing able to inform all of us unwashed masses as to The Way It Is.

Kakumei · May 31, 2006, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Fitz is actually technically correct--there is little to no roleplaying in Guild Wars--but then, there really doesn't have to be. It's a fun game anyway.

To clarify, the game defines so many things for you--you have a couple choices as to appearance, but that's it. Does your character have a backstory, a personality? Sure you could invent one, but who cares other than you? The game certainly doesn't request one--you have a defined agenda, a defined goal, and who cares if you want to do something else? You don't get that choice.

lyra_song · May 31, 2006, 05:02 AM // 05:02

i believe one of the only true games that attempted an RPG, as to Fitz's choice of wording is the game is Fable and that was a miserable disappointment. -.o

samtheslayer · May 31, 2006, 09:01 AM // 09:01

i dont know about you guys, but i enjoyed the scenery and the feeling that theres somthing i havnt seen yet in the game, my warrior has 86% of tyria explored.., honestly the biggest factor that got me hooked on prophecies pve was the fact on how the terrain changed, we had,

happy land > deathly ruins > snowy mountains > jungle > plateau > a lonelier jungle > desert > frozen wasteland > burned wasteland

in factions

cityscape with the same textures used over and over > plains > forest/cystalized sea.

passing a part of the game, like the northern shiverpeaks was an accomplishment in its self, in factions we go back to places weve already been too and clear places weve already cleared, and thats not that fun,

then again, this is all in a pve perspective, ill admit prophecies could of used more challenging mobs, but factions could of used a more varying terrain,

but one things for certain, faction's pvp kicks ass, and thats the reason i love it.

nohooiam · May 31, 2006, 02:16 PM // 14:16

pve should not be a challenge. tone things down, god damn it. ~

Numa Pompilius · May 31, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

Fitz is actually technically correct--there is little to no roleplaying in Guild Wars

In fact there are no computer games which are rpg's in that sense. Not a one. And I've played hundreds over the last 25 years.

Arguably most of the pen-and-paper rpg's I've played weren't either. For those curious what a classical pen-and-paper role-playing experience was like, just get the computer game Temple of Elemental Evil, it is an extremely faithful adaptation of oldskool pen-and-paper dungeons-and-dragons rpg'ing the way it was actually played way back when.
I know, because I was there.

Basically the whole "<insert computer rpg here> is not an rpg" is a bullshit argument, not only on the level that it's equally true of any and all computer rpg's ever made, including fantastically good games like Planescape: Torment or Fallout, but also on the level that YOU do the role-playing.
There is nothing keeping you from playing your assassin the way you feel a Canthan assassin would act, e.g. avoiding silly quests like "luxury goods". Roleplaying isn't something the game forces on you, it's what you bring to the game; people saying that GW isn't an rpg simply show that they have no clue what role-playing is.

Another time-honored bullshit argument bandied around in this thread is that GW has poor PvE. It doesn't. It's got equal quality PvE to most single-player cRPG's (and infinitely better than shite like Neverwinter Nights or Dungeon Siege), and massively MORE of it than any single-player rpg I've ever seen or heard about, totally leaving games like e.g. Morrowind or KOTOR in the dust wrt the size of the world.
Even compared to other MMORPGs it doesn't totally fail. I've only played Everquest 2 of the big-ticket MMORPGs, but GW at least totally destroys that one. Let me restate that: the PvE of EQ2 *sucks* compared to GW: Prophecies, but is about on par with that of GW: Factions.

IMO, what it all boils down to is that GW is free-to-play, and people therefore think it must be worse than, say, EQ2 or WoW. I mean, it's commons sense you must be getting something extra for those $15 per month, right?

Right?

chessyang · May 31, 2006, 05:34 PM // 17:34

just a bit bored a work... just some of my thoughts on a few comments... and my 2 cents

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Originally Posted by strcpy

About 60% signed.

ya me to mixed feeling w/ the OP but like Draxx said

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Originally Posted by Draxx

Personally i have loved coming up with new PvE warrior builds to solo certain areas,

coming from D2 and D2LOD you always had to solo or freaking people leave when your doing a misson. Glad GW fixed the PK or didn't even offer it. I hope GW fixes/does something about AFK'ers in misson.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

1) I refuse to PvP as other than a waste of time because it:
a. Has no value to me if I create a character capable of both (a non-PvP specific character).
b. It promotes oppositional, immature, and disrespectful behaviors by failing to require respect between contestants......................I have no care for quests and missions designed to keep characters at 60 DP. I do not consider this more of a challenge, I consider it bad presentation.

I know how u feel on the PvP bro. I agree w/ you on both your points! But I can honestly say after doing "Fort Aspenwood" Kurzick side. I don't mind doing a little PvE. Ya I get people that user there emote or dance when i die at there feet, but most of them have a monk healing them or they run back to get healed or also towards the turtle w/ 8 hammer warriors. I know the true/good players don't do crap like show rank when it's 8 on 1 and say i powned you..... if you do u SUCK!. Give it a try! It's like PvP w/ a point(misson).

holy cow that 60 DP is annoying!!!! ya i know just kill some stuff and your back to 0. Don't know how PvP is on this but PvE i (IMO) find it annoying. oh well it seems to work i guess(balance)

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Originally Posted by SilentAssassin

I don't get how ppl find prophecies better PvE... There is MUCH more in cantha

I find both equal. I'm still doing stuff in Prophecies. But i enjoy the soloing in Catha more -)

Quote:

Originally Posted by samtheslayer

i dont know about you guys, but i enjoyed the scenery and the feeling that theres somthing i havnt seen yet in the game, my warrior has 86% of tyria explored.., honestly the biggest factor that got me hooked on prophecies pve was the fact on how the terrain changed, we had,

Ya man! I agree! FTW

Quote:

Originally Posted by nohooiam

pve should not be a challenge. tone things down, god damn it. ~

i don't know what to say to that. PvE is fine IMO like the OP.

Kakumei · May 31, 2006, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

In fact there are no computer games which are rpg's in that sense. Not a one. And I've played hundreds over the last 25 years.

This is truth. I didn't know it was under contention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Basically the whole "<insert computer rpg here> is not an rpg" is a bullshit argument, not only on the level that it's equally true of any and all computer rpg's ever made, including fantastically good games like Planescape: Torment or Fallout, but also on the level that YOU do the role-playing.
There is nothing keeping you from playing your assassin the way you feel a Canthan assassin would act, e.g. avoiding silly quests like "luxury goods". Roleplaying isn't something the game forces on you, it's what you bring to the game; people saying that GW isn't an rpg simply show that they have no clue what role-playing is.

GW isn't roleplaying. It isn't. There simply is no argument to the contrary. The engine, the limited character creation, the very game itself discourages and squashes roleplaying.

This doesn't mean, however, that this is a bad thing. In fact, in this particular case, this is a GOOD thing. I didn't buy GW to roleplay, I bought it because it seemed to be an interesting multiplayer game--and that's exactly what I got, and I could not be happier.

If you want to roleplay, go find yourself a MUD, go get on IRC. That's roleplaying. GW isn't. This is not opinion, it's not mocking GW or lowering it in any way--it is a statement of simple fact.